The session begins by inviting those attending to read three Bible readings. These are:
Numbers 9 : 15 – end
15On the day the tabernacle was set up, the cloud covered the tabernacle, the tent of the covenant; and from evening until morning it was over the tabernacle, having the appearance of fire. 16It was always so: the cloud covered it by day and the appearance of fire by night. 17Whenever the cloud lifted from over the tent, then the Israelites would set out; and in the place where the cloud settled down, there the Israelites would camp. 18At the command of the LORD the Israelites would set out, and at the command of the LORD they would camp. As long as the cloud rested over the tabernacle, they would remain in camp. 19Even when the cloud continued over the tabernacle for many days, the Israelites would keep the charge of the LORD, and would not set out. 20Sometimes the cloud would remain for a few days over the tabernacle, and according to the command of the LORD they would remain in camp; then according to the command of the LORD they would set out. 21Sometimes the cloud would remain from evening until morning; and when the cloud lifted in the morning, they would set out, or if it continued for a day and a night, when the cloud lifted they would set out. 22Whether it was two days, or a month, or a longer time, that the cloud continued over the tabernacle, resting upon it, the Israelites would remain in camp and would not set out; but when it lifted they would set out. 23At the command of the LORD they would camp, and at the command of the LORD they would set out. They kept the charge of the LORD, at the command of the LORD by Moses.
1 Samuel 7 :1 – 13
1 When David was settled in his house,
and the LORD had given him rest from all his enemies around him,
2 the king said to the prophet Nathan,
'See now, I am living in a house of cedar,
but the ark of God stays in a tent.'
3 Nathan said to the king,
'Go, do all that you have in mind;
for the LORD is with you.'
4 But that same night the word of the LORD came to Nathan:
5 Go and tell my servant David:
Thus says the LORD:
Are you the one to build me a house to live in?
6 I have not lived in a house
since the day I brought up the people of Israel from Egypt to this day,
but I have been moving about in a tent and a tabernacle.
7 Wherever I have moved about among all the people of Israel,
did I ever speak a word with any of the tribal leaders of Israel,
whom I commanded to shepherd my people Israel, saying,
'Why have you not built me a house of cedar?'
8 Now therefore thus you shall say to my servant David:
Thus says the LORD of hosts:
I took you from the pasture,
from following the sheep
to be prince over my people Israel;
9 and I have been with you wherever you went,
and have cut off all your enemies from before you;
and I will make for you a great name,
like the name of the great ones of the earth.
10 And I will appoint a place for my people Israel
and will plant them,
so that they may live in their own place,
and be disturbed no more;
and evildoers shall afflict them no more, as formerly,
11 from the time that I appointed judges over my people Israel;
and I will give you rest from all your enemies.
Moreover the LORD declares to you, David,
that the LORD will make you a house.
12 When your days are fulfilled
and you lie down with your ancestors,
I will raise up your offspring after you,
who shall come forth from your body,
and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build a house for my name,
and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me.
2 Chronicles 6 :18 – 21
2CH 6:18 "But will God indeed reside with mortals on earth? Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, how much less this house that I have built! 19 Regard your servant's prayer and his plea, O LORD my God, heeding the cry and the prayer that your servant prays to you. 20 May your eyes be open day and night toward this house, the place where you promised to set your name, and may you heed the prayer that your servant prays toward this place. 21 And hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel, when they pray toward this place; may you hear from heaven your dwelling place; hear and forgive.
All readings are from the NRSV and copyright © 1989 National Council of Churches, USA
All readings are from the NRSV and copyright © 1989 National Council of Churches, USA
The readings clearly show us that there is a tension between our being a people who are extremely flexible, fully able to move at the whim of God, but where the physical structures that they have available are very flimsy, and in terms of their ability to be used by the wider community, inflexible, and the desire for permanence and constructing a building that is something which is worthy of God and available to be used by the whole community, but which means that the people are less able to move at short notice.
The tension that we can see, is the same tension that we still have, and we could choose to go either way, if we so desired. We could build something which is truly an impressive worship area, Harwood’s own version of the Crystal Cathedral (http://www.crystalcathedral.org/about/architecture.php) – and you could argue that anything that is not up to this standard, is somehow is falling short of what we have the capability to achieve. That said, you could, (and I would) take a very different point of view and point to the challenges that face so many of the people that live around us, and ask what are we saying to them if they see us building something of this size and scale. Likewise, on a day when we have seen destruction on a scale which is, to the majority of us, unimaginable, there are issues of where our money is needed most that we must wrestle with and address.
Please don’t think that these tensions are anything new. Even in Jesus’ time there was a commonly held belief that one of the things that would happen, when the Messiah came, was that people would all live in tabernacles (“tents”) – that they would return to being that mobile, flexible and available people once more. Indeed, there are a number of theologians who understand this as being the cause behind Peter’s statement at the transfiguration, when he offers to build tabernacles for Jesus, Moses and Elijah.
We have to recognise though, that we are a different set of people from those early Christians. We are not nomadic for a start, and whilst we might want to argue that we should be, speaking as an itinerant minister, trust me that the way that this impacts upon your family life, your kids education and schooling, and the career of your spouse, points to how we live in a country where for most of us a nomadic itinerant way of life simply is not possible. Now if you were in Nepal, then things would be different, but we are not.
So, if you want my point of view, and this is a blog after all, I think that we do need to have a building, but that the building that we have needs to be simple enough, and flexible enough, to do whatever God calls us to do, not just for today, but in the future as well. Effectively, the building becomes a tool that allows us to go where God leads, rather than a monument that anchors us in a place where we used to be. It needs to include spaces which are sacred, and where we can become more aware of the presence of God, and places which are less sacred, where we can discover God in other ways. In addition, we have to change our mindset that suggests that “the church” is the only place where we practice our Christian faith, and that our success criteria, is to get people to come to us. In reality as a church we should be involved across the community, in other people’s tents and temples, as well as our own – and our success criteria (if we should have one at all) should be to see people’s relationship with God growing, in whatever form that takes.
Henri Nouwen saw churches as places where people should be provided with “safe spaces” where they can discover “their faith and their God”, rather than “your faith and your God”. I would agree with this, but only if you see that those safe spaces take on lots of different forms, and can be in lots of different physical locations.
There is so much that you could add to this, not least of which is a discussion on stewardship, and how we understand the parable of the talents, but this is meant to be a discussion starter, and promptings to get everyone thinking, and so I will leave this here. The blog is here to be used – please use it for positive discussion and discernment as we ask the question “OK God – Which Way?”.
The tension that we can see, is the same tension that we still have, and we could choose to go either way, if we so desired. We could build something which is truly an impressive worship area, Harwood’s own version of the Crystal Cathedral (http://www.crystalcathedral.org/about/architecture.php) – and you could argue that anything that is not up to this standard, is somehow is falling short of what we have the capability to achieve. That said, you could, (and I would) take a very different point of view and point to the challenges that face so many of the people that live around us, and ask what are we saying to them if they see us building something of this size and scale. Likewise, on a day when we have seen destruction on a scale which is, to the majority of us, unimaginable, there are issues of where our money is needed most that we must wrestle with and address.
Please don’t think that these tensions are anything new. Even in Jesus’ time there was a commonly held belief that one of the things that would happen, when the Messiah came, was that people would all live in tabernacles (“tents”) – that they would return to being that mobile, flexible and available people once more. Indeed, there are a number of theologians who understand this as being the cause behind Peter’s statement at the transfiguration, when he offers to build tabernacles for Jesus, Moses and Elijah.
We have to recognise though, that we are a different set of people from those early Christians. We are not nomadic for a start, and whilst we might want to argue that we should be, speaking as an itinerant minister, trust me that the way that this impacts upon your family life, your kids education and schooling, and the career of your spouse, points to how we live in a country where for most of us a nomadic itinerant way of life simply is not possible. Now if you were in Nepal, then things would be different, but we are not.
So, if you want my point of view, and this is a blog after all, I think that we do need to have a building, but that the building that we have needs to be simple enough, and flexible enough, to do whatever God calls us to do, not just for today, but in the future as well. Effectively, the building becomes a tool that allows us to go where God leads, rather than a monument that anchors us in a place where we used to be. It needs to include spaces which are sacred, and where we can become more aware of the presence of God, and places which are less sacred, where we can discover God in other ways. In addition, we have to change our mindset that suggests that “the church” is the only place where we practice our Christian faith, and that our success criteria, is to get people to come to us. In reality as a church we should be involved across the community, in other people’s tents and temples, as well as our own – and our success criteria (if we should have one at all) should be to see people’s relationship with God growing, in whatever form that takes.
Henri Nouwen saw churches as places where people should be provided with “safe spaces” where they can discover “their faith and their God”, rather than “your faith and your God”. I would agree with this, but only if you see that those safe spaces take on lots of different forms, and can be in lots of different physical locations.
There is so much that you could add to this, not least of which is a discussion on stewardship, and how we understand the parable of the talents, but this is meant to be a discussion starter, and promptings to get everyone thinking, and so I will leave this here. The blog is here to be used – please use it for positive discussion and discernment as we ask the question “OK God – Which Way?”.
In our groups on Tuesday and Wednesday there were five questions to stimulate the discussion, based on the bible readings quoted at the start – these have been re-produced by permission of the publisher:
1. Discuss the tension between the tent and temple, nomadic and static traditions, evident within these readings and within to Old Testament as a whole.
2. What was the attitude of Jesus to the Temple in his day? Compare Mark 11:15 – 17 with Mark 13:1 – 2.
3. At what point in the life of our own community of faith is there evidence of tension between the tent and temple aspects of our worship and life together?
4. Which aspect do we think is closest to the insights and teaching of Jesus of Nazareth?
5. How can we give clearer expression to this priority in our worship?
Taken from Re-pitching the tent – Third Edition, by Richard Giles ©2004 Canterbury Press, an imprint of Hymns Ancient & Modern Ltd. Used by permission.
Please may I add another question, which goes back to the keynote from the 3rd of January.
6. How does the understanding of “shrines and vines” challenge us move away from our historic dependence on bricks and mortar, and to adopt a more radical view of our buildings?
Further reading:
For those with access to Re-pitching the tent, may I suggest that you read chapter 27 – Nurture and Neighbour as part of your thinking on this topic, likewise I would refer you again to Tom Stuckey’s book Beyond the Box.
The first practical question has to be 'do we need a building' - lots of churches meet in School Halls and other buildings and are very successful. Time and money can be spent on their mission not on building, maintaining and cleaning a building. I concluded that actually we do need a building, but you are right in saying that it needs to be a building that is a tool for our purpose not just a purpose in its self.
ReplyDeleteNot sure I agree with Henri Nouwen comments. I think that our purpose is to bring people to and help them develop a relationship with the one true God as revealed in Jesus Christ. I get nervous when preachers talk about people discovering 'their God'. There is only 1 God. Opps - that’s the fundamentalist coming out in me again - get back
I agree with the flexibility and simplicity. In a way we should be nomadic - not actually moving but changing with what God requires of us, when he requires it. At a risk of being shot down in flames - I am not a traditionalist and I do sometimes wonder whether hanging onto the past prevents us taking the risks of the future. Having a building where we can meet God on many levels is important, we need a building where we are able to worship and witness as a community of Christians but will also allow us to be Christians in the community.
ReplyDeleteWe need to be able to try new things, and have the courage to stop things which are not working - new or old.
I find Marks readings both very similar in that in both cases the temple had moved away from its primary activity. It had become the market and the object of adoration.
The building being nice/attractive is not a bad thing, indeed should be positive, but it is only a tool in our worship and witness.
With regards the Nouwen comment - we should be leading people to the one true God, but is how God reveals himself to the alcoholic, the prostitute, the drug abuser, the abused, the homeless....etc the same? I would agree with the description of 'their' God in that sense. I would also agree with the need to provide the safe spaces and not them necessarily being fixed.
ReplyDeleteI am glad I added the Nouwen bit, I nearly didn't. Didn't realise it would spark debate like this.
ReplyDeleteNouwen's argument, which for the record I would agree with, is that the role of the church is to create safe spaces, into which those who enter create the agenda and ask their questions. It is the opposite point of view to the way that some people do Alpha (wrongly) - where the point is to get them in, tell them certain things which it has been decided are essential, and then think that this is job done. Instead, you create a space where they will be "safe", and provide an atmosphere where they can ask questions, think for themselves, and spend time discovering God as they understand him. Each of us understands God in a slightly different way, because each of us has a slightly different relationship with him. That doesn't mean that there are multiple God's, there isn't, there is ONE GOD, but we each have a different relationship with him.
What Nouwen is arguing against is the "one size fits all" school of Christian thinking, where you have to believe what someone else thinks, and instead embracing a church which is about each of us supporting each other as we build our own relationships with God.
Therefore in terms of "Which Way?" I go back to my point regarding flexiblity and being able to embrace a wide cross section of activities, from cafe church to high mass, and messy church to the scout group.
Whilst I can wholeheartedly support all of what has been said about safe spaces and flexibility of offering. I keep coming back to the point that this is a discussion that we should also be having across the Circuit. We have far to many buildings that are not fit for purpose and until we all ask to be lead by the Holy Spirit as to Gods will they will be a huge drain on our resources that we should be able to use for the future Mission of the Circuit.
ReplyDeleteThe Tuesday night Study Group have supplied the following summary points to add to the debate (Thanks Lorna!!).
ReplyDeleteThoughts from the Tuesday House Group – Week 1
• To look outwards – main focus not to be only on the new building
• More important what happens among the church family and the people outside the church – the needs of the community
• When planning the new building to include a facility for the young people in the community – coffee bar – computers
• Someone to organise group activities, visits, meals out etc for the young parents
• Not to be afraid to move on, always to look forward to what is needed and to be adaptable
• The notices for both Tottington Road and Longsight to be on one notice sheet, so that the church family at both centres are aware of all that is happening.
• Communion to take place after the Coffee Pot – may attract more people – could be advertised on the Church Notice Board
• Could we have an Alpha course again, advertised to all the people of Harwood?
• Are we having our outdoor witness service at Morrison’s in 2010?
Haven't really thought things through yet - I have more questions than answers at the moment but here goes: I do think that we need a building of our own - just in terms of practicalities - transporting/safe storage of resources can be a nightmare.
ReplyDeleteWe are not an itinerant race but I think in some ways we are now more than we were when our current building was erected. How many of our young people will really be too bothered about the church building - will they even be living in Harwood in 10 years time? We have moved away from staying local to where you were born and bred and therefore how much commitment can we expect from people who may have no intention or desire to still be here in 2020? They are unlikely to invest the large sums of money that our predecessors did when they may not be around and may not be providing for future generations of their own family.
In Abraham's time, the 'church' was moved around in a tent as the community moved. i.e. the church remained central to the life of the community, the community weren't having to travel to be able to worship. This is important to me - to belong to a Church that is right here in the community in which I live. I'm not saying that this should be the case for everyone but it is important to me.
As a camper (well I suppose I'm a wuss caravaner nowadays!) I compare being in a tent to staying in a hotel. My own experience is that camping is much more open to the community that hotelling. I tend to go into my hotel and stay in my room, other than to eat, drink, etc. When camping, I sit around outside the tent, chatting to others around and am generally much more open and friendly. Perhaps a more tent-like approach to a Church building would also make us more open to the community.
I don't feel that the building itself is important to my worship - I can worship God and feel His presence equally well in the bath as I can in a Cathedral. However, a Cathedral type building can be awe inspiring and can make me feel the vastness, majesty and awesomeness of God more than a 'lesser building'.
How would others view us in terms of a new building? Would an impressive building make them wonder why we waste our money on such things rather than giving it to the needy or would they see it as a commitment to God and the'Church' that we are so prepared to invest money in it?
I think that the upkeep of a building is possibly more important than the design. If the design is simple but well kept and cared for, does that reveal more to the community than a more impressive design that looks like nobody really cares about it? I know when I used to drive past Bright Meadows Christian Fellowship (or whatever it is called these days) and the building looked like it was falling down, paint peeling etc. it never crossed my mind to think - ahh look they must be investing all their money into caring for the community etc rather than putting it into their building. I used to think - well they don't care much about their building, probably don't care much for God or anything. A pride in the building probably indicates a pride in God.
A massive investment of money into a building that does not end up being flexible could prove a millstone round the necks of future generations. Are they likely to think that they can't make necessary alterations because of what it cost their ancestors to do it originally? I sometimes think about what it must have cost (at a personal level)the people who built our church and feel a little guilty about 'knocking it' in the way we sometimes do. On the other hand, I think that those people who devoted so much time, money and effort into creating our current church building would feel that it is more important to be an active and useful church, witnessing successfully, than just to maintain the building because of the investment that they had made.
ReplyDeleteIs it possible to make a relatively low budget building that still conveys the importance and awesomeness of God that gives us the flexibility to change with the times but also the ability for future generations to knock down and start again without feeling guilt or a sense of needing to keep the tradition?
I think in some ways it is easier to create a more traditional building than a modern one. People enter and appreciate traditional just because of what it is but go into a modern building that has not quite kept up with the pace of life and that's exactly what is seen - a church that is behind the times. Is it possible to be flexible enough and cheap enough to be able to totally keep up with modern life and yet still look like we really care about what we stand for?
Enough rambling! Not sure any of this even makes sense - just a collection of thoughts!
How fantastic that an Eccumenical Service can inspire us to ask God Which Way, especially with the knowledge that our Brothers and Sisters in Christ are prepared to Step out in Faith with us !!!!!
ReplyDeleteInterestingly, one of the most exciting times in the recent history of Christianity in Harwood was Bibletime which happened during the summers of the late 1970's (ish) in a big tent!!
ReplyDeleteThursday house group
ReplyDeleteThe environment of change.
Four of the questions referred to how things have changed in our lifetime, technology, social change regarding Christianity, the church organization and experience of worship.
In general it was thought that technological advances were great for society, but the church has suffered through 24 hour shopping and the rapid advance of communications that the church has failed to keep up with.
One comment on children pointed out that white children are assumed to be Christian even if they have other faiths or non at all.
Another drawback with this age is that people’s attention span has decreased leading to boredom. and the church has tried to become all embracing and is afraid to offend
Things we could do: have a welcome pack for new people, photo’s of the senior church officials coffee after the services and church activities on the notice board.